Wednesday, October 26, 2016

Help for Billy Chapter 1-3 Due November 1

Meeting #1

Meeting Date: Wednesday,
Meeting Time: 4:00 p.m. - 6:30 p.m.
Meeting Location: FMI Library

Assignment: Please read chapters 1, 2, and 3 in Help for Billy prior to the meeting and respond on this blog to the following questions:

1. What resonated with you?
2. What are the implications for the district/buildings?
3. What questions remain?

Comments to other participants are encouraged, but not required. Participants are expected to spend a minimum of 30 minutes outside of class preparing for the meeting through posts and comments. This blog uses a Google Analytics tool to track user activity. 

42 comments:

  1. Connie
    1. Help for Billy comes highly recommended from our peers who just finished their book study. I didn’t know what to expect, and the first three chapters have certainly been an eye opener to the social/emotional needs of some of our most challenging students. I know struggling kids often come from ”at risk” homes and sometimes will display disruptive behaviors. However, I never thought about behavioral issues in the classroom being indicators of trauma, and that these behaviors are stress induced responses due to an insufficient regulatory system. It is so important to understand what drives a student’s behavior but, for many of us, it may be difficult to fathom why a child is acting out a certain way because we have not experienced the trauma they have.

    Chapter two describes the "good" and "bad" students we have in our classrooms and states that their behaviors and profiles are “not a matter of choice” but rather “an imprint from their past histories”. This really resonated with me, and I have done some soul searching on how I could have handled some situations differently in the past. I do think it is important and an excellent idea to ask the students what they “need” to learn in the classroom. I am looking forward to the heart of this book and its approach to strategies and solutions to help these children.

    2. Is our district/building meeting the needs of the whole child? Due to federal and state mandates, most of our effort is focused on student motivation, engagement and achievement, leaving limited time to address the social and emotional needs of students. Yet, we know that strong student-teacher relationships and well-integrated social and emotional learning significantly impacts student achievement. We need to continue to work together as a team/building to come up with ideas on how to better serve our students socially and emotionally. We have a lot on our plates, but as a team/building we can pull together to meet the unique needs of all our students. Reading this book, creating an understanding of challenging students and having open dialog are good places to start.

    3. Where do we go from here? What training and resources do we need to support our teachers and students in our building/district? How do we obtain the financial resources to support our training?

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    1. I found the statement "not a matter of choice" very interesting as well. I also agree that every minute of the day seems to be scheduled and loaded with academics so how do we work in emotional needs? Loved the fact that you stated we can do it by working together as a team and building.

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    2. Connie, I agree that many kids feel we may not get their circumstances---and they are at the age, where unless they feel really safe, they don't disclose a lot in order to protect themselves or their families.

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  2. 1. Reading the first three chapters in Help for Billy gave me great insight as to the "why" behind the way students behave. Honestly, before reading this book, I never thought too much about why he/she was misbehaving, but rather focused mostly on the misbehavior and how to handle it.

    2. I think as a school/district we need to put some thought into how to best meet our students' needs. I love teaching and find it very rewarding, but also find the job to be very demanding, both physically and emotionally. In addition, it seems that the demands placed on educators continues to grow, yet class sizes aren't taken into consideration. We have students with diverse backgrounds and needs, and I feel we're stretched very thin. In order to really establish those teacher-student relationships, I feel that class sizes should be limited, we need to put more importance on having counselors full time in our buildings, and we may need to reevaluate how we're doing our MTSS groups. If strong bonds between teachers and students play such an important role for students like Billy, then would it be best to keep our "Billys"?

    3. How do we adequately train and support our teachers to help the "Billys" in our school?

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    1. I think the MTSS question is fair. I think we can do both, build relationships and switch classes for academic reasons. I do see a need to be more intentional in both the way and time we meet the emotional needs of students. Being spread too thin is a big worry. Thanks.

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    2. I think sometimes our "Billys" need to be allowed to leave our room. Being with other students who are academic peers can help that student feel accepted. Working with another staff member allows "Billy" to know there are multiple adults in his/her world who are safe and genuinely care about his/her needs. It also allows for the situation that if "Billy" and the classroom teacher have struggled to build a relationship, perhaps another relationship can be built with a different adult.

      MTSS allows for cluster grouping. This is a practice that has been shown in research to help all learners grow academically. It also addresses teachers being spread too thin as it allows a teacher to be a bit more focused in their instruction to meet a slightly less varied population in regards to academic needs. I know it's not exactly on track with what we're reading, but I felt worth noting due to Melanie's discussion about feeling spread too thin (a feeling I think we all have) and differentiation to extreme academic needs can contribute to that.

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    3. I honestly think all staff members need to go through at least part of the CPI training that Virginia does to answer your question, Mel. CPI gives strategies to talk some students down and to help them regulate again.

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    4. I do agree with you on the misbehavior thing. Because our time is limited, and often with an audience of 20 plus, we mostly focus on putting out fires. Again, it's a time issue. Being able to have conversations, regroup, and teach alternative ways to decompress takes time and trust.

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  3. 1. Another study showing the importance of Maslow's hierarchy of needs theory. Relationship building and creating a safe environment are extremely important if we are going to reach the Billys academically.

    2. I think Connie's and Mel's comments are spot on. How do we create time to not manage behaviors, but build the relationship and environment that will change behavior. The emphasis continues to be on academics and benchmarks, but w/o paying attention to the emotional needs of some of our students we will not move the needle.

    3. Are we doing friendship circles? Tribes? Do we have enough counselor time? Is our PBIS meeting our students needs? What are strategies teachers are currently using in class to build relationships?

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    1. 1. After reading the first three chapters, building relationships with students is most important when dealing with students like Billy. Creating a calm classroom environment helps difficult students maintain a calm internal presence. This reinforces the importance of the first weeks of school!

      2. The importance of relationships with students is critical if we want them to learn. Taking time to personalize our conversations with students may be a small step in developing relationships. Sharing more about ourselves may also be a way to develop relationships as well. There are many good ideas from above that I agree with, full time counselor and smaller class sizes are both critical when considering this topic.

      3. How can we build on our PBIS curriculum to help our "Billy"? How will this group reach out to our staff who is not a part of this study group?

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    2. Personally, I wish FMI had a full time counselor. I feel like I as a teacher spend a lot of time at the beginning of the year teaching the social part of school but I do not go back and reteach as the year goes on. I only do the PBIS lesson when they are assigned. After reading this section, I know that I will try and do more social lessons over the course of the year.

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    3. I think kid's emotional needs are so big in this district that a counselor in each building would be a wise investment. When Jamie is able to briefly touch base privately with a student, he/she almost has a reset button. They come back into the room ready to learn and feeling more in balance.

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    4. I completely agree that we need to invest in a full-time counselor in each building. We also need to take more time working on community building activities, social skills, and positive character traits in the classroom. That's definitely tough to fit in with academic demands, but needs to be more of a priority.

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  4. 1. When we were first presented with this topic in the fall, I immediately thought of all of the students I’ve had the honor of teaching who have challenged me. Some challenged me through difficult behaviors while others challenged me through their high intellect or aptitude for the content area in which I was teaching. No matter the challenge, though, what has always been most helpful in reaching the student is getting to know them in the present and understanding their past. What is the baggage they bring with them to class? One of the challenges I experience as a specials teacher is getting to know all 300 students in just 2 years of time. This is very difficult to do on a level that can be beneficial to the relationship building between the students and me. It is one of the parts of teaching at the elementary level that makes me miss teaching at the high school level. At that level, I knew the kids for 4 years and saw them every day all four years as well as at extra and co-curricular music ensembles and activities. Trying to find a way to connect with our students here on that same level...will require some creativity!

    Also, being cognizant that trauma doesn't have to be TRAUMA in the eyes of society. What one person may perceive as trivial may be earth-crushing to another. Being able to have empathy and validate the trauma that our students experience from their perspective can go a long way in helping our students feel cared for.

    2. It is interesting to look at “Help for Billy” while also working on my coursework for talented and gifted education. Both highlight that the place that needs the most work is meeting the social and emotional needs of the learners and that the academic achievement comes from a learner feeling comfortable, non-stressed, and safe. As I said above, for me, trying to find my way into the framework to get to know our students more intimately needs to be a priority for me. I have thought through some of my own reactions - even in recent weeks - and have wondered now what I don’t know about the students with whom I was interacting. Allowing time to get to know our students should be a priority. Research shows that the academic benchmarks will fall into place when students are in the right frame of mind to learn and produce work.

    3. How do we as a staff collaborate to help each other know our students? How do we share information about students that can impact their performance in school without compromising their privacy? How do we work to collaborate beyond our building to work with GWAEA and parents? How do we collaborate with Starry and Emerson to help our students make a seamless (or less bumpy, anyway) transition into a new environment with new faces and new expectations? What systems are currently in place?

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    1. I thought one of the things we did this year that was great was sitting down at the beginning of the year with the specialists and special ed teachers to discuss our incoming students. I know I learned valuable insight as to what to do and what not to do when it came to one of my kids this year from both Virginia and Joe. I think we could also schedule meetings throughout the year with the classroom teacher and specialists if needed to discuss strategies that are working with students if that student is having difficulty in a certain classroom.

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    2. I liked your comment about Trauma. It reminded me of the sentence on page 14. "An event is not traumatic for a child based on the event itself; it is traumatic based on the response to the event from the caregiver."

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    3. Melissa, yes, I found those meetings at the beginning of the year to be very helpful. We have more "Billys" though than those who are receiving services in our building. Figuring out a way to meet to learn the strengths and challenges of the students could be very beneficial!

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    4. I like what you said about trauma. What is important to one person doesn't necessarily mean it's a big deal to another. It depends on so many things---the day, what happened previously, sleep, perspective, feeling supported, etc... Validation, respect, and connection is so important.

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  5. Kelly Wilkinson

    I am the unknown:)

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  6. What resonated with you?

    I found the reading to be very intriguing. The part that stands out to me the most from the first three chapters is that of the relationship between the student and their teacher. It was interesting to me the amount this author focused on this issue and how it ties in with John Hattie’s work with effect sizes on student achievement. I try very hard to build a positive and nurturing relationship with all of my students. But let’s be honest some are easier than others to build that relationship with. I think it will be a little easier now after reading the first part of this book as I will now be thinking about more than what happened to the student before school on a particular day, that could have led to the behaviors being shown in class.

    Before reading this section, I never thought about a child’s behavior stemming back to infancy and the care they were given or lack of care as an indicator of their behavior. It really has opened my eyes to all of the baggage (trauma) that our students carry with them on a day to day basis. I find it very important that we as teachers have the opportunity to increase a student’s window of tolerance by the surroundings we expose them to in the classroom. I also think it is important to remember that “Billy” lives only moments away from his breaking point each and everyday and this is why he is short on patience, is impulsive, has difficulty staying focused, and can’t understand the consequences of certain actions.

    What are the implications for the district/building?

    According to Hattie, a positive teacher and student relationship has a +.72 effect size on student achievement. This has a huge implication for our building and our district. I know that our district has started to put some interest into expressing the importance of building these relationships as some of our break out PD sessions have been focused on just that.

    I do believe, however, that teachers have so much on our plates that we often get caught up in getting in the academic lessons and forget to address the lower parts of the Hierarchy of Learning Pyramid. It is very important that we ensure that our students feel safe both physically and emotionally, as well as respected by both adults and peers. It is also keen that they have self-esteem and self worth. We need to focus on these components at the beginning of the year to have a chance for academic success.

    What questions still remain?

    Who can we partner with to bring about engagement and partnership with our parents?

    What are some ways that we can do outreach and share the information from this book with other professionals working with these children and their families?

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    1. Nice tie into Hattie's work. Just another source stating the importance of relationship building.

      Do we look into a relationship building curriculum done the first two weeks of school during MTSS or homeroom time and then followed up on day to day procedures and another "lesson" once a week. Lesson is very loosely used here.

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    2. I think a lot of Billys are at breaking points with stress that doesn't necessarily start with us :-( It's changing our jobs immensely. The time we spent at the beginning of the year was so vital in establishing a classroom community. What could we build back into the schedule to address the needs of the kids in our classes to make everyone feel connected. What goes away?

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  7. 1. What resonated with you?
    Reading the first three chapters made me reflect back to high school and college and the years I have taught. My mom was a big influence in my desire to teach and I remember her talking about the different students she worked with as an associate and all the training she took. She instilled in me to remember that the child’s home life and prenatal care has a huge effect on the abilities and behavior. I would volunteer a lot with that classroom and learned that the teacher would do home visits to learn more about the family and home life. She would try and educate the families about the child’s needs and parenting skills if needed. The chapters we read reminded me of things that Deb and Mom talked a lot about...Maslow’s hierarchy of needs… Is the child hungry? When was the last time the child ate? Is the child sleeping at night? (I have had a couple students in the past who didn’t sleep well because of a baby in the house, parents fighting, 4 families living in a 2 bedroom apartment…)When was the last time the child was hugged? Is the child’s family homeless? What is the child’s neighborhood like? Is the child living around violence? And so on. There for awhile I took up Denise’s idea of supplying cereal to the students for breakfast when I knew I had a couple students who only had lunch for food. The only problem I had was the cost and many students not being honest with not having breakfast and being hungry. I need to come up with a better plan and strategy with it.


    Developing a trusting relationship with my students has always been a goal of mine every year. I feel I do a fairly decent job at it, but there are always a few students who are harder to reach and build that foundation. It is easy to get wrapped into the students who are outgoing and attention seeking to the point it is easy to miss the quiet and reserved students. I try very hard not to miss them as I have felt that I was that child.


    The big thing that grabbed me is that there may be a hidden reason for a child being disruptive. Today, I asked my students if they knew why teachers need them to be quiet and respectful when they are teaching and giving instructions. They were all able to explain the correct reasons. I then asked them if they knew the reasons why teachers need them to be quiet and respectful when they are working. Again, they knew the reasons. I asked my students to tell me what they need to learn, some said they knew they needed it to be quiet for them to learn and work. Others didn’t know what I meant. I noticed that many students that said they need it to be quiet for them to learn and work were ones that are consistently talking. My last question was why those that need it to be quiet to learn and work talk a lot during those times. My favorite answers were, “I get bored with the work”, “When it is quiet time seems to go by slowly and talking seems to make time go by quicker”.


    2. What are the implications for the district/buildings?
    Thinking about the last couple of years with larger class sizes I feel that I was not able to really develop the relationships with my students like I feel like I have this year and the years where I had small class sizes. I also feel that there are more students with more needs these last couple of years too. Having a counselor more often would be a huge help, and figuring out a way to help specialists to connect with students. Some of the students may feel more comfortable with a specialist that has interests that match better with them.


    3. What questions remain?
    How can we help specialists connect students better, easier, and quicker?
    Should we look into finding “mentors” for more students?
    More friendship groups?
    Could we purchase and permanently place “Buddy Benches” to help students meet and make friends?
    Is there a survey or something to help identify what students may need?

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    1. Some great thoughts. The idea of a Buddy Bench went around a few years back and we decided not to do it. Should we discuss it again??

      I know we all can pick out a student in our class that doesn't really have any meaningful relationships with any peers. What are we doing to help that?

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    2. Jeni, I think you've always done a great job in establishing relationships with your students---the cereal/breakfast idea is a good one. It's difficult when you have to think about the implications of cost. It reminds me of the kids who came to my door with two Trick or Treat bags for a "sick sister". I didn't ask questions. If there's a need there, I can't judge it. I wonder if General Mills or Quaker would be willing to provide snacks to keep on hand for those kiddos?

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    3. Jen, I have tried the cereal idea and created a monthly calendar for students to bring a box to share. This seemed to work well. I often think that I should bring that idea back, because many students are hungry mid morning. Making sure they are well fed helps us to have harder working kids!

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  8. 1.All of our students have most likely experienced trauma. Some of our children do not have self regulation skills. We have to set our classes up in order for these kids to be successful.


    2. Relationships are very important with these kiddos. They have to trust us and know that we care in order to let us lead them on this self regulation journey. We have to help regulate them until they can do it themselves. Zones of Regulation is a great curriculum to help with this. Also the Five Point Scale would could help some kids. Several LinnMar schools use the Five Point Scale school-wide.

    3. Are there students that self-regulation does not work with? For example oppositional defiant students or students who are very mentally ill.

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    1. Several points here. I have thought about bringing Zones to our school for every classroom. It definitely requires buy in and a time commitment.

      I'm interested in knowing what the book says about Mental Illness, ODD, etc.. and how that's connected to self regulation skills.

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    2. I think the Zones of Regulation are great to use. I would agree that it takes buy in and commitment. It really does seem to work with the students that Virginia and I share.

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  9. 1.What resonated with you?
    First and foremost I “agreed” with this book and the approach the author is writing about. Building relationships is the key to working with kids/people. I thought the answers to the surveys were very enlightening. (pages 2-4 and the little boxes throughout) Those answers made me think about how I work with students and to change tactics already. For example: one of my students was upset with me about something and my first reaction was to basically say, “I’m the adult and that’s what I said,” kind of answer. Instead, I asked him how he thought I should handle it and that stopped him in his tracks! He had to think of a solution instead of just getting mad.


    2. What are the implications for the district/buildings?
    Since I’m in a new position, I don’t think I can look at the district/building level- I’m still at the classroom level. When I was in the reading position, I felt much more able to approach the needs of the students successfully. Since I’m now in a third grade classroom (now that I’m a real teacher- as the kids say to me!) this is one area that I am still working to get a handle on. Since I’d been in the reading position so long, the academics came so easy, it didn’t take much time for me to plan a lesson, it was all second nature. Being in a new position, I have to spend more time figuring things out. Everything from lesson plans to seating arrangements, and organizing the materials that have been added to my classroom, it all takes more time than before. Making third grade a positive experience for my students (instead of just making reading a positive experience).


    3. What questions remain?
    How to continue to meet the emotional needs of students (especially the “Billys”) and the academic needs. If I only needed to one or the other, but both need to be addressed, continually.

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    1. I responded to several post the same manner. I'm interested in seeing what the discussions are like over the next month. Is it about a curriculum or our attitude? If we make time to teach specific curriculum, what do we give up? Is it whole group or small group? I think a harder look at pages 2-4 would be time well spent.

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    2. I think it's both Mike!! ;-)

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  10. 1. What resonated with me:
    We are hard wired to connect with others beginning with our moms before our feet even come into the world. As a teacher, I've often thought about what that means when kids come into school everyday with more going on than they often disclose. Whether we are dealing with something that happened at the breakfast table or even 10 years ago, there is always bound to be someone in our classroom experiencing some trauma. There's this very human element in our curriculum based world and truly, if the social and emotional needs of kids aren't being met, it makes learning more difficult. I think of my own kids and how even though their needs where entirely met as babies? They still need that connection piece with others particularly when feeling stressed. Their most successful years in school were with teachers who, even a structured setting, conveyed caring and support. I need to continue to remind myself of this even with those kiddos who seem to be pushing buttons for a response.

    2. What are the implications for our building/district?
    We truly wrestle with time. Our curriculum seems to be more demanding as we try to reach every student and give equal opportunities for success---which is good stuff, but I do miss the little periods of downtime to connect with the kids and to build community. I like the PBIS lessons, but sometimes they feel disjointed or like one more thing to get through. One of the fondest memories I had as a student was read aloud time with our teacher after lunch. It was a way to settle in and regroup after lunch and I think it spurred my love for books and my desire to want to be a teacher. I feel like some good things have been pushed to the side. On the bright side, we have some good things in place to make connections as a school with Book Club, Food Drives, Gift of Giving, Day on Wheels, and even Halloween Hop--but it wouldn't hurt to do more. Class size is always a huge concern to me---when I had 27 kids last year, and someone seemed to take a majority of my energy, I would go home at night and wonder if I'd checked in with each and every kid during the day. I'd love more Jamie/counselor time in the building where she could put small groups back into place for those kids who need friends, parents are separating, in jail, or with anxiety.

    3. Questions that still remain.
    What about our kiddos who need social skills and breaks and alternative recess moving forward? We seem to put good things into place, but their circle can't be too wide. I worry about what life looks like beyond FMI for them. How do they not take 20 steps back when transitioning? And have we ever considered mediation and/or mindfulness as part of our day for ALL students to reset or center. Would incorporating these practices be as essential as brain breaks during the day?

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    1. Ann-I agree with all of your comments, especially in item number 2. I love the fact that you brought up how the little things that read a loud have been put aside due to all the other demands. I wish we had a little more "down time" some days just to talk to the kids about their lives. I also appreciate the way you talked about the good things happening at FMI. Often times we get caught up in what more can we do, we forget what we are doing.

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    2. Pacing has come up in several different conversations. It's probably something we need to continually look at as we make more things "tight" in our curriculum. Transitioning is always a concern whether it's from 2nd to 3rd or 4th to 5th. I see our school system heading back towards three K-4 buildings.

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    3. Pacing and time appear to be recurring challenges in building stronger relationships with our students.

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  11. Blog by Janet Moeller
    Assignment: Please read chapters 1, 2, and 3 in Help for Billy prior to the meeting and respond on this blog to the following questions:


    1. What resonated with you?
    *The children that are coming to us today have a much different background that the students I went to school with at the elementary level. The strategies that worked back then may not be successful today. Teachers have to try new some things and look at their students in different lights with respect to what they lived with and lived through before coming to us.
    *There is so much more known about brain development now than in recent past. Students need to feel safe, calm, understood, and valued before they are ready to learn. The trusting relationships they build with their classroom teacher and other adults at the school are important and needed.
    *Chapter 2 explaining the difference between Regulation and Dysregulation was interesting. It made think of a few students in past years, who were in a state of dysregulation and what I should have done to help them find a state of regulation. Trauma in childhood, whether real or imagined, stays with a child. Children need help from their peers and caregivers to find a “place” where they feel their feelings and then move forward. This may take a brief amount of time (days or a week) or much longer time frame (years). Teachers can not take erase the trauma, just be there to help the child get through it.
    *The information and diagram about the window of stress tolerance was interesting. I find myself relating to having different levels of tolerance for different situations and days. I try to be calm when dealing with my students each day, but some days are harder than others!
    *Chapter 3 went into the three parts of the brain and what each part is responsible for. While most students can regulate themselves and function with the top-down approach, there are those who are in a dysregulated state and function with the bottom-up approach. The students in this approach are struggling to feel safe and survive and couldn’t care less about subtracting three digit numbers or finding nouns in a sentence.
    *I am reminded of what Mike Murphy told our PLC group at the beginning of the year. It is more important to make connections with our students and build solid relationships with them than to get through all 30 lessons in the reading series or all the science kit investigations.


    2. What are the implications for the district/buildings?
    *Teachers need information about which of their students have gone through trauma before coming to their grade level, especially if students are moving to a different building. Knowing this type of information can help explain a child’s behavior and guide the teacher in using the most suitable strategies to teach and manage classroom behavior.
    *In a “perfect school setting”, there would be more than one adult in the classroom. If a certain student needed time alone with the teacher, another adult could take over supervising the class and the rest of the lesson could continue. I find it hard at times to keep the rest of the class on task while dealing with the disruptive behaviors of a few students.
    *There is more evidence being presented that educators and support staff need more training and resources to help students in the area of mental health and wellness.


    3. What questions remain?
    *How can I manage all the different aspects that are needed to help a few students who are dysregulated without short changing the other students who are regulated and wanting to learn. Both groups have valid needs, but very different ways of meeting those needs.
    * I am wanting to hear the insights and experiences of my colleagues as they have dealt with and are dealing with students in both regulated and dysregulated states on a daily basis.

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  12. Thank you for your great discussions today! I am looking forward to trying out some of the things we talked about in our study group tonight. Especially the "Think Space" in my room. Also, Ann, thank you for the idea of the "Calm App."

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  13. Paul Collins

    What resonated with me? We see children like Billy all the time in class and at recess. I feel like my number one priority as a teacher is to help all students especially ones like Billy feel safe, secure, and respected in the school environment. Building good positive teacher-student relationships is vital if you want to truly connect with students like Billy. Students need attention, some more than others, and sometimes to get that attention they act out or do something squirrely to get your attention. I find that by having lots of patience and being selective as to when to respond to these types of behaviors helps de-escalate a majority of the problems. Many of today's students have faced
    a number of traumatic events in their lives and when they come to school they just want to survive. If you can help them feel wanted, respected, have a positive self esteem, then I find that learning can take place. Helping them learn how to self regulate and giving them strategies to do so goes a long way in keeping negative behaviors in check. Making the learning day a positive, challenging, and fun experience for students keeps them engaged and they enjoy learning and coming to school. Building good teacher-student relationships is the key to helping students like Billy.

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    1. At the building level: I feel like we do a good job identifying students like Billy early on and helping them feel connected to a positive learning culture we have at FMI. We as teachers care about the success of all of our students and realize that one size doesn't fit all. We have had to change our teaching styles so we can reach all students especially ones like Billy. By being positive, attentive, compassionate teachers we can help students reach their full potential and truly love coming to school.

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    2. Questions: Why can't all students have good positive parent-child relationships? What will happen to students like Billy after they leave FMI? I could go on and on.

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